being agile in business book

The Agile Road Less Travelled – hurdles faced by people on the ground in Agile Delivery – Zoom Discussion

“Great insights, Brilliant session”
“Insightful session 🙂 “

Roundabout vs Traffic light example was brilliant!”

“Such a wonderful session. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Thought provoking and informative” CK Baliga

Video Clips Playlist

Full Video



The Agile Road Less Travelled Slides

Video Clip Links 

If you are interested in a specific question please click for the relevant clip below


Introduction – Poem 

Topic 1 – Aspects of a Team in Agile Delivery:

Topic 2 – Scaling Agile Delivery:


Coaching & Training


Links to exercises and games mentioned in the talk

Retrospective Sailing

Estimation Game

Mindset Test

Retro wheel


17:12:08 From SSS : Roundabout vs Traffic light example was brilliant!

17:18:16 From RS : I feel DevOps is required to effective Agile delivery
17:19:01 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : makes Agile Delivery that much more stronger Rajendra

17:26:02 From RS : WSJF is prioritizing the work items rather then estimation right?
17:28:26 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : yes it is Rajendra

17:28:16 From SSS : Many a times there will be a return question from the stakeholder when you do T shirt or Fibonacci estimates like ok How many days is that 🙂
17:29:52 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : it comes in a Sprit, OR it doesn’t come In a Sprint OR it is about a week is what the customer / stakeholder should know Syed
17:31:17 From SSS : Cool 👍

17:36:21 From RS : Actually. the sales team will approach the Architect for high level estimations as they would not be able to judge the amount of work
17:37:02 From RS : Sales need to give competitive bid to win 🙂
17:38:02 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : Yes agree Rajendra. In some cases they provide high level dates without proper estimates OR they end of providing firm commitments. Doing it in agile estimation style can be the next big thing
17:38:46 From Sagar : Sales team may not have time to interact with DevOps team.
Even if they could do so, the actual delivering team would be different !
17:38:50 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : competitive bid is one thing, making it unrealistic is totally another
17:39:39 From LP : We’re trying to get a small part of the delivery team involved in the project sooner in the process, to help with the shaping and also let the s/holders know what is possible ref the solution
17:39:50 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : having different dev team during Pre-Sales and then a different team doing delivery should be less encourage Sagar
17:40:37 From Chethan – Elements of Agility : LPowell’s team is doing the right thing 🙂

17:45:26 From SSS : Great insights, Brilliant session
17:45:29 From LP : I’ve got to drop off, thank you very much
17:45:48 From Rajendra Singh : Insightful session 🙂

About this event

When and where
Date and time
Wed, 12 October 2022, 20:30 – 22:00 IST

The Agile Road Less Travelled – hurdles faced by people on the ground in Agile Delivery
Session 1

Online Zoom Session with:
Belinda Waldock, Being Agile, UK
Chethan Kumar Baliga, Elements of Agility, India
In this session Belinda and Chethan will discuss and answer questions posted on LinkedIn by people on the ground in Agile Delivery.

Duration: 90 Minutes

Time : Wednesday 12th October 8.30pm India, 4pm GMT-UK

Location: Zoom

Book your Place

Join us for an evening of collaboration and discussion

Transcript (Raw edit)

She is the author of a popular book being agile in business.

That’s the name of the book

She is also the founder company that goes by the same name being agile next specializes in helping teams and organizations in their agility journeys

she has close to 30 years of experience in the industry without. So, without further ado, on behalf of all of you, I welcome Belinda Waldock.

Welcome, Belinda, good evening, and thank you for this wonderful opportunity. No, thank you.

That was such a lovely intro. I always kind of gave a back kind of play like

Oh, I don’t know what the the expression is but yeah It’s always like just nice makes me feel good, thank you.

I’ll show I might be just if my eyes get diverted It’s just where i’m i’m adding people into the coolness.

They’re drop again. so that’s great and yeah it’s it’s really lovely to be here.

So just to to give some background. Actually, we connected via linkedin chatting about the fact that my business was 7 years old, and some of my things were getting older.

And you just said 30 years, which made me feel really old, but but true, and I I often say that actually my my adult journey started when I I started riding horses because you know, you have to be very agile to to be

in that sport, and there’s a lot of failure and a lot of falling going on when you’re learning that.

So. yes, but yeah, i’ve been i’ve been being agile.

I think a long time now. and yeah so part of that was to kind of say, let’s run some sessions.

Let’s do some stuff to celebrate that and that’s resulted in this session, and I recognized a couple of names.

who submitted some questions onto Linkedin which was great.

And so we’re running through those this evening soft team depending on your time.

Z and just giving some just gonna kind of keep it conversational.

I think i’ve got a few slides to remind us of the questions and

I’ll pop those up. quickly. actually just so we can give but I will come back to screen, cause it’s always nice to just be able to see faces.

So we we named well Chethan came up with the name of the talk

He came up with a suggestion less travelled, and I absolutely love the poem and the book

if you know it. and so and I thought it was really appropriate, because I think in terms of agile journey.

I think you’d probably say I am somebody who has taken a rate less traveled if you like.

So i’m i’m more about that kind of being agile rather than doing agile i’m i’m, you know i’ve all about being I don’t really buy which tools and practices and methods of frameworks that

you’re following if it gives that agility if it gives that feeling and and that and that result so that I think I’ve got a little bit of housekeeping do you connect to me if we’re not connected because

it’s always great to connect and we’ve got 90 min, and we’re going.

We are recording and i’m I think what would be really great is, if you’ve got kind of thought sas we gave for you.

So if you’d like to add into the conversation adding is we can use chat for that.

So if you’ve got thoughts do, add them through the chat as I say, a couple of people on video is always lovely, because it gives me a face to talk to, and a bit of a reaction to to what we’re saying

and i’m I I think we’ll probably have a little break halfway through, as well just that we can just grab a breath up for 5 min.

So hopefully that all makes sense. And then I think that somebody just more.

Let me those guys in

I’m say one of the questions I wanted to ask actually just to get a feel for he’s in the room with any, and it’s just a kind of a simple and and as well kind of question already is if you were

to scale yourself on a one to 10, in terms of how you feel about kind of your your agility, if you like.

How I do you feel? So a one would be i’m just kind of starting out?

I Don’t I don’t feel very agile at all whereas a 10 would be.

You know i’ve been doing this for years I I live and breathe that job.

So just i’m curious really you don’t have to respond But if your if your if you’re a threat, then i’d love just pop in a number into chat and let me know where you are it just gives me a better

idea of who i’m talking to in that sense of how much experience. and We’ve probably got a mix so I imagine. So i’m probably gonna talk like i’ve got a mix

But it’s just always nice to get a sense of he’s in the room.

Say, Oh, we’ve got middle of the ground and say 4 to 5 and 5.

Say that’s a nice yeah see that’s Oh, I like that I like the accuracy of the how i’m feeling on that scale.

So well that’s great It is so and I think I I oh, gosh! I mustn’t get carried away with things.

But actually a 6 of 7 is a really lovely place to be because actually a 9 and a 10 often is maxing out, and we’ll find that other areas will suffer almost because we’re we’re running the 10 out And in

one area we can’t then sustain tat and across the board.

Say Oh, brilliant lots of fives and sixes and seven’s coming 3. so some nice synergy there say, Well, oh, a nice nice mix in the room, so that’s great thank you for that that’s that’s

great I I thought it would be appropriate to put the Pope up just to to revive you.

I’m very tempted to read it but i’m getting i’m gonna resist, and i’ll say the back.

I think if you if you haven’t read them then they are they are great to read.

I think a lot of us did it in English and not and and

It’s a well-known poem, but I I love the poem in the sense that it is all about kind of decision making.

I think it is about being a child in so many ways that benefit of hindsight.

How things look different, you know, when we take a decision versus how they look in hindsight, and how agile is all about really harnessing that and taking that iterative approach.

So we’re building in that reflection regularly we’re able to look back and reflect, and check our path and pivot, pivot or persevere.

I’m really helping us with you know some of the essence that is is behind this poem, and and behind the book as well.

Say it’s a very I think appropriate appropriate title, which is great. thanks right without further ade and

I think we’ve probably got the I think most of the here say

I shall stop talking poetry and start talking agile all day.

As I say, I do think this this beautifully between the 2 I’m Jason, as well haste to say the way we’ll do this. I think is ted is gonna ask the questions as such and give a few

thoughts himself. and then i’m gonna add to that as well and as I say, if you’ve got chat if you will. if you got things that you want to add do adam in the chat, and what i’ll do is

i’ll go through that transcript afterwards and we can we can share that where it’s where it’s really useful.

Say Right? Right? Okay. Yeah. Thanks. Melinda.

So the first topic or this evening is about

The various as picks up team in agile delivery.

And the first question within that Oh, was how to keep the team’s tempo consent with the values and deliberate while a good screen team will tend to improve.

Tend to improve iteration after iteration team members will carry an unknown risk, which is which is fatigue.

Oh, to minimize this risk, So that team numbers are in a good space or a happy space to deliver value consistently.

That’s the first question under the aspect of a team in agile delivery.

Right. So should I be sharing some thoughts? Barinda?

Yeah, not so. you you meet I mean we both actually last night to speak about this just sustainable pace didn’t.

We we talked about this idea of of sustainable pace.

Yeah, So let’s say what you were yeah

Do you want to yeah or or i’ll carry off I think you should stack you?

Oh, okay, i’ll. i’ll love this we’ll get into a flow in a second way.

We the first question, and there will be an offload.

I thought it was really interesting. we We had a a quick pre call call last night.

And just had a really good conversation about building this sustainable pace within a team.

And I think tempo often kind of sounds like it’s a continuous kind of consistent, and there’s there’s a part of me that feels that actually you know a team’s got a bit more of a

heartbeat. And actually, sometimes, where you know really productive we’re really doing things Well, things are going great, and they’re all falling into place.

And then other times, things are really hard and difficult and challenging, and the customers changing their mind a lot.

And all these different things. And so I think, actually thinking of us of having this, you know.

Flat, you know. consistent delivery is is actually unrealistic.

A lot of the time. And actually we need to create this sustainable pace and this this the slack and the the space for the team.

And I think there’s so much emphasis on you know, at the end of the spring we must deliver something, but actually we should put equal emphasis on on our reflection, and our ability to pause each spring you know so

it’s not one big long marathon that we got to keep going.

They sprints are giving us that time to stop and capture our breath and see where we are, and you know, and then recharge if you like, and and go again.

So I think if we’re we’re we’re following those patterns.

Then we should, you know, hopefully manage that fatigue, but keep an eye out for it, because there are, you know, early signs that we can use.

I it. it’s interesting, How many teams I meet that almost put themselves into perpetual failure.

You know they they give themselves too much to do in a spring They can’t get it done, you know, and and it just becomes this loop a perpetual failure, and it kills morale.

It’s awful, and actually having that slack you know getting that stuff done, and then being able to do more is a much more positive kind of solutions focused way of doing it, which I think is good. Do you agree hey?

Great. I I I think. I mean good points you have you have come up with and presented, and I think most of the audience here would resonate with those points in one way.

Or the other. And what I would like to add is, I mean, I think the idea is to build a obviously not every time we would have the flexibility to have a mature team when we start.

Right. So start with a good team right? and again when we say good team right for for you.

Usually, I mean in the past a good team would be a team having a lot of specialists.

A team that would work over time or a team that would know try and say yes to most of the things.

I’m about. I think over a period. of time What we what we have learned, or what we should realize is a good team also means a team that can have the right mindset.

Right. The team that is quite energetic. and it was. This is a good mix of no skills, I mean moving from specialist to being T-shaped.

I can also having, you know, showing some kind of flexibility, and also having the courage to ask questions and and no we be able to cordially disagree.

Also right, I mean it doesn’t mean that they have to say yes, all the time.

So that is where the I mean healthy disagreements can I mean healthy disagreements can lead to a stronger solutions.

Right. That’s for a healthy mix of these points, and and the ones that you mentioned right in terms of having a slack, you know, in introducing some spikes and doing required brainstorming whenever required and also no

kind of being in a rotation, so that the same person doesn’t do the same job.

Every iteration or everybody’s. print and then no also trying to, you know, include some fun elements with and it’s not always about.

No come Friday. We have a relay it’s not about that. right?

So a healthy mix of all these, and I think obviously the fatigue factor will be that.

But I think that is how we are going to deal with it, so that every time the team comes back they feel a bit more energy than they can maintain their model that way.

Yeah, I think one of the things that you just maybe think about when you were talking there as well.

Is that how I think one of the btes of agile?

Is it? whatever methodology you’re using it is literally putting the writing on the wall?

So you know if you’re listening, to that that board what the board is showing the blocks. the impediments, if you know things aren’t getting done, then you know i’m a great believer i’m a i’m a

theory. why kind of passing people are doing the best they can with the resources, the tools, and the skills that they’ve got.

And so, you know, if there is, if there are challenges within the team, then it will be the skills the resources the environment that they’re in that needs to improve in order to let them to be able to do their job effectively you know

I think that’s what often causes for de is you know, not having that environment that we need.

And then and you know it’s in the principles you know.

Give your team the the environment, the support the skills that they need and trust them to get their job done.

It’s say, yeah, great I think that .

Gosh! I think I think all of these questions we could spend the entire 90 min on couldn’t.

We is there. i’ll just i’ll have a quick look at chat.

I’m gonna try and have a quick so I think there’s some agreement there, so that’s great. and Say, shall we shall we swiftly?

Have a look at the next one so there’s a couple of

I’ve breaking these right down now excuse me

I like this picture. Yeah. Say, this is the the the the second

The question was around the practical challenges faced by the team on a day-to-day basis.

You had some good thoughts on this. Nick, then you you!

They came quite, quite well to you last night. Okay, So I think over a period of time when I have spoken to teams, and also while I have been a part of various teams. right?

Some of the common common challenge, I mean. Of course, there will be tens of challenges, but the ones that are strikingly similar across teams, right? or most of the teams have highlighted One would be end up sticking to

a time box. I mean what we call is the time box challenge right?

Especially when they do romance from events, Timebox becomes no,

Of some importance, and then also the span of attention. Right?

Because 2 bigger iteration or 2 complex requires a requirement or 2 tool.

Empty meetings people, and to no lose focus.

So span of attention was also something that they were trying to deal with.

And then the other I mean a topic that is probably being written to death.

Right is context switching, or what are the disadvantages of context? switching?

I mean, while while at the outset it it looks like it is a good.

But what? what? What are the drawbacks that come along with context?

Switching plus I mean the 20 first century. What happens with the lack of t-shirt? the skills.

And finally, the last couple of points, which are also optical importance.

One is a very busy customer who is not available most of the times.

And how, how, how do we? How do we embrace change all the time?

These are some of the practical challenges that you know teams have. and even even the experience practitioners right once in a while they kind of find it difficult. Don’t know how to come out of it.

Yeah, I think one of one of the challenges I definitely see.

I think symmetry, and that is the interruptions and the distractions. say which would lead to you know, making it hard to pin down the time box, because if you’re if you’re running you know I I often find

that i’ll use a mix within and the teams i’m working with because they can’t run a pick sprint.

They can’t fix their work for 2 weeks because something will come in. that’s surgeon important that they’ve got a work to, and if they run kind of camban where you know it’s the next most important urgent

thing. Then some things never get to the top of the list.

So there’s this kind of mix needed often and and the way the way I always do is through an inbox.

So you know, actually you know there’s an inbox that slack is available within the spring, which is there potentially, for you know Scape Creek.

But also, you know, you say where things take longer than we think they’re gonna take in that sense rather than customer change in their mind.

But also to to deal with those distractions. and how have a bit of a control point for them, so that we’re not just getting kind of clients.

Drop bombers, say, and you know, send us random email, saying, you know, can you do this?

Can you do that a lot of teams I work with they you know they’ll they’ll say Oh, the customer they’re so chaotic, you know, and they’re really busy, like you say and so pinning them down or

they’ll just ping stuff to us ad hoc and I always say we’ve got a really badly trained customer, you know.

Actually, you know, if you were running the spring pattern with your client, and they knew that they were gonna speak to you every 2 weeks or 3 weeks.

Then you would teach them to save those things up and only contact you in an emergency.

When is urgent, important. so actually, we can you know it’s important to be using this with you know the partners with the customers, as it is internally as a team to to overcome some of the challenges that that teams face

you know, because these aren’t necessarily challenges faced by agile, that challenges, faced by you, know things constantly changing and uncertainty, and clients evolving their ideas, you know, especially if you’re building something huge and

you know, by the time you get halfway through it the the market’s gonna change, the product will have changed.

So you know we we need to have that adaptive approach and and be really embedded.

Sorry I went right on the there’s a couple does it Does anybody want to put forward any challenges particularly that they’ve got that

I I put the bait up here because I love this exercise in terms of identifying, you know.

If you imagine that your your your team, you’re on this phone, this your this representing your project, or your business, or your team, you know, and there are those things that put in the wind in your sales.

But then there are those anchors that are holding you back.

And I think you know prioritization is another big one that’s often.

I think people say, yeah, it’s hard to prioritize and plan yeah.

I have a question, yeah, yeah, actually, basically This this point because of some interest to be on a day to day basis.

You know I have a client customer who’s pretty resistant.

One thing, and second is unavailable because he the the customer himself is so busy, and he’s he’s a sponsor, and he pays money all that he’s interested in is delivery, on

time. Okay, now, when we are being pulled to the river.

In this aile morning, and the customer not being available for us, you know, in terms of clarification and stuff like that.

So what is the best way to deal with such a resistive customer?

Or maybe you know, person was so busy. You know we have to strike a balance.

We have to, you know. Make him studies, find or happy as well as

We should not get, you know, bombarded or infected.

So what? What’s the best of both I think if you can put in place a bit of a rhythm, and going back to what I was saying, there really is Have a sprint with them that says you know and it might not

be that you’re you know going back to him every week I don’t know the size and the scale of the project and things.

But you know if you can put in that you know we’re going to.

You know we’re gonna meet every 3 weeks we’ll show you what the progress is.

Get your feedback whether that it might be that somebody else is actually better to sit in that, because he’s all made.

So you’re talking about a productain or role or may stare you in that sense of getting feedback from him getting guidance from which direction

So I think it’s difficult and it’s it’s. I I smile because I taught agile for a few years, and I used to ask the students come up with you know what are the downfalls of agile and one of them is is clients

are often not very agile. it’s very you know Sometimes they do just wanna say I don’t want to be involved.

Just go away. you do it, and bring it back when it’s done, you know, and they don’t really understand that they need to be involved.

So I think there’s this groundwork that we need to lay with them to get them engaged.

But again, I think those visualizations make it really quick and easy to be able to update the client. share them.

The working solution, you know. Give that that quick feedback, that you know, and maybe 3 channels where you know if you’s too difficult to pin down, that you can send him things, or you can, you know, engage in other ways.

Through different channels, because if he’s not available for a phone call.

Then. you know it’s looking for those alternative ways to engage.

Yeah. Okay, Okay, yeah. thanks. Thanks for that. Yeah, you. Is there anything you want to add?

She made me what happened? She mainly I I would probably see. think I mean.

What you say is right via Still, you know, struggling in one of the projects that in yeah, as you mentioned, we can always have.

We do have a 2 bi weekly connect with him in terms of you know, reporting the progress and what’s happening and stuff like that.

I mean this is apart from all the spring review meeting and all that that’s already normal.

Now this is a completely different connect. wherein we discuss you know certain things which are more to do with the lists, with what’s happening in the team. How things are.

What is the health? and all that you know? the the motivation of the team, and all that.

So they are generally. What happens is at times we get to cancel the bottom, even even if it’s watching 2 weeks.

I respect the fact that he is a very busy person I don’t.

I Don’t Have that thing, but but you know it becomes there’s always a limit it’s start that is not available for 6 weeks.

8 weeks. Suddenly he falls up and says what’s happening no this is a very common problem.

We can’t even tell him anything because he is the sponsor.

So so he’s the one who’s based who pays the money.

So he’s a big boss right so that’s something which I just want to go and start yeah, it is difficult.

It’s. So you you remind me of a team that worked with a little while ago, and they were finding it really challenging to get engagement from.

They. they basically needed the client to provide content. And they were really, you know, for finding it a challenge to get that.

And we just had this huge conversation about Actually, is this process working for them?

You know, is this working for them? If it’s not how can we change it to?

Maybe work for them. and trying to see it from that different perspective. you don’t, rather than it’s not working for us.

Actually, why isn’t it working for them because they should be engaged in they They should be excited and engaged.

And you know it’s it’s kind of like Oh, you know you feel like you’re then I when I said about putting video on.

You feel like you’re talking to somebody then So I think that would be the question that I would kind of poise would be that you know.

What can we do to make it work better for them?

And work better for us as well and manage that so sometimes we have to accept it and go right.

Okay, we’re not gonna see them for 8 weeks and then he’s gonna come in with team requests and things.

So we need to be prepared for that. We need to manage that, and we need to be able to visualize it and put that right on the wall for him to show or have sorry.

I keep saying him, and that you know to show them like this is what’s the impact?

Because I think, you know, you can tell somebody so many times and they just don’t hear it.

But if you put it on the wall literally that you, you can visualize it some way.

Then that radio, I think, helps to to show them, and then they, you know, will make work out for themselves.

You know, especially when you’re dealing with somebody in power in that sense. I think as well in that sense. you know we don’t feel, you know, like we should be able.

We don’t feel like challenging this but you know you do need to challenge it, but not in a you know it it, but in a positive way which you, you you know, move you forward rather than in a destructive way which is just

criticizing, and saying it’s all wrong actually how can we make this better, and running something like the boat would be a great exercise.

Actually you know what’s going? Wow, what are the end his whole new back. So you know this isn’t just for retrospectives of our sprint.

This is, we can use this for getting feedback and reflections from our clients as well.

I’m gonna stop myself there and I think the only thing that I would possibly like to add is because I think you have

You have presented beautifully a good discussion. Alright, I think it in such a situation.

It is time to have a candidate but a firm chat with the customer, so that no, he you can can enlighten him on.

What What is it that you are trying to do right a month in terms of

I know it’s not yeah I mean it’s easier said than done.

But but once he understands the whole aspect of it, and he understands that he is equally responsible for.

This successful engagement, I think. we we should probably be able to see a slow thing here.

No. I would like to add see this kind of problem.

I’ve seen many times when that sponsor or the the key stakeholders right Then they they don’t make.

They are not interested. Suddenly they will come so normally, what I do in in my projects.

Okay, so what I will do I will set up a demo call.

I will give them a demo, and, like this one is getting recorded.

I will ask them to record. I will show what we are done and the before the end of this print.

We’ll have a one week of feedback feedback where they can give a feedback, and we we will tell how much percentage we can.

We can include with the estimation and we’ll give a justification also what cannot be achieved. and if it is a priority, it has to be taken into next sprint.

So there and before, when we send the invite for Demo, we also make sure we send the repetitive reminders.

We also ensure other is important. stakeholders along with the product or not, also knows the importance of the meeting, and they deal also right?

So you have to bring everybody on the same page to avoid this kind of scenario.

I like, Yeah, yeah, I think reminding ourselves that we’re, all on the same side, definitely a really good.

And remembering that reminding ourselves that we’re all on the same side, that is, can be just that mindset that you’re going into it. I think it is yeah brilliant.

So right. Let’s have a look at the the next question.

Thank you I think we live well, if we don’t get through all the questions.

I don’t think that’s a bad thing necessarily but I am mindful people on the call that have got their questions, so I want to make sure great.

Say, get me back together if the next one. Yeah. So I think, getting all the associates to work as a team, not as in giving us, especially in terms of aspects of individual ownership.

Versus team ownership in agile delivery.

I think this this question kind of stems from the traditional ways of doing things.

Where is enough time at disposal. and then there are bigger team.

So necessarily associates. Don’t end up discussing with each other, or there are.

There is quite a bit of hierarchy in the team where you have no

Technical leads or project managers will do most of the you know.

Team building, or most of the exercises that need the that need some collective leadership, right?

So. So when when teams suddenly exposed to agile ways of doing things?

I think that is a challenge that people, you know, often face alright.

So that’s that’s the question i’m putting down Yeah, yeah, I think I I I pop that photo in if you got a quick chance.

I’ve come back onto video because I forgot to turn it back off again.

It’s them. i’m sorry but yeah I think again, you know. I’m, i’m building on the previous question is getting everybody working together is having that high level view.

So, and that photo is actually a museum team.

So not a technical team at all. But they have

They have the team. They have volunteers, they have partners, They have collaborators.

They have stakeholders they’re running multiple projects multiple exhibitions.

And actually that that exercise was this all really getting together to map out this raid map and give us this? and it it wasn’t necessarily the result of the roadmap.

But actually the process of the more getting together and filling that rope map out.

So it’s more that process that you’re going through rather than the end result.

The end result of having that roadmap was great but actually getting them, you know, engaged and feeling like that all on the same team.

And so I think there’s some great activities that we can do that. that really help to you know, build those relationships, Build that rapport, Get that collaboration, Get that conversation going? So that people do feel like part of the team you know we

we again, I, you know, run I I set up an organization called Software Comma, which is all about helping kids into tech careers.

And again. that was all volunteers and you know it’s always like open source community, you know, building a community and you know. and and it is about you know, that collaboration.

And getting people working together, and I think now that we’re so much more remote.

And we’re doing a lot of working from home actually the collaboration of communication is so much more important.

And you know we need and again add our works is this beautiful channel that really helps us to visualize things representing share things, show people what’s going on, and then help to break down those barriers and really get people included

and i’m finding these common interests I work with a an R.

And d tech team a couple of years ago. now. but they all What they said to me when I first went with them was that they were like, Yeah, we’re an agile team, but we all do different jobs and we tie record on

Jira and that was, you know, the kind of you know they had a.

They had a a scrum master. he would allocate the work, and you know they were.

They were kind of using the agile tools but they weren’t really big, agile, and that was why they wanted me to work with them and look at ways that They could be agile.

And actually we found some real common ground across skills and learning collaboration shared partners all these different things. Yeah.

Okay. they were working on different things, but there was synergy and that’s where we found the glue.

If you like to, to really get them together and start working more cohesively as a team. Right?

I’m sorry does that so hopefully that’s a good answer, but it is about relationship and rapport, and trust I think as well.

I’m bringing people in, and and acknowledging that some people do like to work independently as well, and let in that, and and accepting that, and then looking for the ways where we can kill collaborate and work together

Oh, so again getting that balance really and I think I mean for per every person right I mean as the team comes together.

I think it it makes sense to identify a specific comfort zones, and then creating the transparency or awareness that no, those compared zones are also inclusive. You know, as part of the team and that is when

you will see that the the team members see the inclusiveness, or they start feeling that they belong to the team and

And and once the teams once there is team bonding right

In terms of whatever accountabilities or ownership that is there, I think it would be.

It will all, as you said, right, the blue I mean, because it might not be the same for every team.

But once you find that blue right, you just have to make sure that it is there, and then we it holds the team together. and I think, remembering as well that again going back to the last question.

As well. I think is that you know If you’re working with the state shit that are, you know also you know they’re not just working full time on your project.

They’ve got other projects. So I think sometimes you can get it’s easy to forget that it’s because you’re spending a 100% of your time.

All your focus is on that project. Then you know you, you kind of have that expectation that everybody else is as well.

So I think sometimes we have to be mindful that that actually they’re probably juggling a few different things.

They’re not working full-time and so they’re not got the same flexibility and same as customers.

You know They’re not spending all their time on this project they they’ve got a fit in, and it can come in back to that.

Does it work for them? just to add a point there since we spoke about ownership. right?

So what I I mean possibly an important point I wouldn’t say it’s an advice, but a suggestion for you know, for the audience in this in this room meeting when they get an opportunity.

They can try it out. The point is, some right, spite of all that we try in terms of, you know, making the team accountable, or try to inculcate that sense of ownership in them We Would have tried

the you know all the normal normal routes of them usual ways of doing things, and if it doesn’t work right, so what what?

What I what I learned from one of the reading practitioners in the industry is it’s a concept called the leading from behind. right?

So, and at some point you realize that you you just make them aware of their responsibilities.

And then you don’t you are in you are no more in charge.

You I mean you still you still But you don’t give that information or indication, and you’re leading them from behind, and that is when we see that wonderful things happen I mean at least I have seen that in certain games

in my projects, so it might not work all the time, but with with a good team. Right?

You will see that with the right potential they will start owning up things, and then. Now,

You will see that things fall in place much better than how hard anyone else would have tried.

Yeah, yeah, I think that this is a challenge as well. this this you know, getting people. It actually reminds me of a later question around.

You know, getting people to allocate their own work versus allocating it for them.

I mean that’s a big thing about people taking ownership but also taking ownership as a team.

So that you know if we’ve got we’ve got to be careful about individual targets, because it it creates competition, and we want to create collaboration.

So we want to kind of say this is the team’s goal?

And how do we collaborate? as a team? so if one person is challenged, and finding it hard that actually the team get together to help them?

You know they don’t stand back and say well that’s you know, is their fault that we didn’t deliver at the end of the spread.

You know we need to create that that vault within the team that actually rolled in it together.

Again. we’re all on that that same side right cool right. I think it needs quite nicely into yeah one of the other

One of the other questions. Oh, hang on I think i’ve what’s the change?

One. Oh, I feel like we’re missing the question we might have to come back to it.

So one where we deal with the assistance to change is that the one?

Yeah, yeah, I think it is here somewhere. awesome i’ll have a look in a second, cause.

Otherwise i’ll give you all i’m gonna let me stop sharing.

And but yeah, yeah, i’m sure the next question should be it might be.

I cut down my deck very quickly before we started.

Before we started. got rid. of Oh, no, it’s just further down in the

There we go. Let me bring that back up. And okay.

That’ll teach me to t It was slides just before you start a presentation doesn’t it so that Very good.

Very well. Yeah. Say this: how to deal with resistance to change within a team some, and I couldn’t resist.

But in the the adoption life cycle up there.

Yeah, just I I mean my i’m gonna try and do really quick, this thing.

Answer actually cause we’re running we’re we’re till i’m talking way more than I should be but how to deal with resistance change in c but it the one thing I think you know is if

you’re getting resistance to change in your team then it’s not necessarily a bad thing, because that person is speaking out, and the fact that they care is a really great thing you know.

So if they care enough to challenge it, then one that means that they feel safe to challenge it, and also that they care enough.

So listen to them, you know, is this, and there that their concerns you know.

And talk it 3, because actually one, some of them might be valid.

And you know, and also it. It helps them to address.

Say those questions and those challenges that they’ve got and i’m recognizing that you know I I love the product adoption lifecycle, when I just think it rings true in so many different things that you know it if you

say we’re introducing adults this organization there’s gonna be the earlier doctors and the innovators that are jumping on that.

And you know, yeah, we want to do something new. We want to change, do something different. Yeah.

But there are also those people later on who want to see that it’s working before there, willing to to to to test it, and that that is a natural evolution through the organization which is why we say you can’t big bang agile because

it needs to grow organically within a in an organization, and you know, some people within the organization will want.

Sit back and observe and see how it pans out.

Rather than get jumped straight in, you know, at the earliest opportunity.

So I think we need to be mindful of that and let you know that that journey of change happen within the team, and let people do that in time.

I don’t think if we force set crops then you know you will get that hard resistance. so and an Id we want to get our teams into a place where they’re actually pulling that change we’re not pushing it on


We got anything to add. yeah, I mean, I think, once we identify the innovators and the early adopters right?

And then we we make them a part of the whole exercise or the engagement.

I think that energy will trickle down, or it will, and they will rabbit off on the others right.

So the early majority and the rate majority will also find it safe to get onto the bandwidth right, and then playing by the principle of inclusivity, I think the laggards also We take them along with

zoom when that’s how the spirit of team is right so that’s that’s what I would like to add.

And yeah, So I think it’s it is that that that that recognition.

So this was a I oh, cool I did. Oh, I left this slide.

It. I left this we were talking about this last night.

I was trying to describe it to you and I this is my doodle that I did last night after our cools.

They put it in there, and I I i’m glad I left it in actually it’s

But this this. But, yeah, these practical difficulties in the in adopting our in big projects, and I think we’ve we’ve always covered that at all.

Last couple of sentences in that sense of you know not being out of Big Bang at all into an organization.

It’s I shall I read out the question Yes, yeah gay right?

Yeah. yeah. So so far, we were discussing about the first topic. So it’s time now to get on to the next one.

So this is about no concept of scaling, or the need for scaling in agile delivery. right

So just one big question: Oh, this is The idea is to discuss the practical difficulties in adopting agile delivery in larger projects, and that deliver features over a longer period of time, and require a larger number of people or quite a few

teams to be around and Another additional question along with that specifically on Spotty does the famous 45 model work well, or are there better ways of doing it?

Yeah, I then we we We briefly speak about this yesterday, and I I have this kind of quite strong feeling about the spotify model in that.

I think it’s absolutely brilliant. I I I really do love the specifying model I’ve I’ve I’m speaking to some of the spotify.

I mean crew, who you know you work and I think it’s great, but the spotify model is spot advice model.

It works for their business model. and you know and while there are definitely things that you can take from it and apply. It’s the essence and the sentiment that you really want to be taken.

You can’t you know if you just replicate it it’s not gonna work.

And what they’ve done beautifully is They have built their own style and flavor of virginity.

They’ve taken you know the different methods and tools that learning across lean and agile.

They’ve got such a strong culture and and and mindset around you know, building something together that it works really really well, and I think that’s the kind of key behind the spotifying model. and Dan. and scale and they don’t do things at

scale. They do lots of little things that then all beautifully, you know.

Kind of and work together. so they they don’t have one big model.

I don’t think they have lots of little models that then form this, this this spotify model, which is great.

So it’s Yeah, it it is about I I and being agile is all about that, and that you know, and that model is continuously improving and changing.

You know, if you go to a talk from Spot, if you what to talk from spotify a couple of years ago.

And now look at another one. It will be slightly different because there are new versions.

It’s always evolving and adapting and growing with the business and with the model.

So as things change, it changes to and I think that’s One of the things that we try to do too much is pin things down.

We try and go right that’s it it’s fixed now we’ve done it, whereas actually it is, and and the road less traveled.

The book is all about that is actually you know our map is constantly changing. and in order to you know live that rate less troubled. if you like is that, we need to accept that map changes and embrace that, say Sorry

that’s a slightly deeper meaningful reply but I’m.

I think, this question was asked by he’s on the call it’s it’s specifically in terms of the practical difficulties.

Right of the larger team space. viewpoints that came to my mind.

Would be, you know. I mean, if the solution or the product in question is, is being design or device.

Does a set of components right? So inter component delivery agreements and is is going to always going to be a challenge.

And then because the engagement more, the number of teams.

How do we deal with time boxing? You know even what kind of springs are we looking at?

How do you go about doing your spring reviews, or any other reviews?

For that matter, what should be the you know. What should the agreement of having?

Said that we are ready, or we are done right.

I mean technically, they’re definition of radio definition number this from language.

And then how, how, How? what kind of backlogs should we be looking at? and and how about?

No bigger plans. I think these are some of the practical difficulties right and but the key to I mean, I would say, I mean as I like it by Belinda.

It. The key to remember here is a you respect to up with scared model you take.

The idea should be, because most of the jails anybody frameworks are on the right way.

Frameworks. I mean I at least I would expect the scale delivery. scale dagger delivery framework also to be to retain that lightweight nature right?

And then, and we we we don’t scale because it is larger We don’t scale because it is a

We we want to, we we we scale only if it is necessary, right.

And then every now and then, we try to disk no as applicable alright.

So. So from that perspective, just to conclude rates 45.

Try and understand what the model is. See what elements work for you.

If you feel that the model in its entirety no does well then see if it well to your business model, because even practitioners it’s 45 have have you on a spoiler saying that this is something that we

have, as you want, exported by over a period of time.

We were doing in 2,012 it’s not necessarily what we are doing now.

We we take something which we are not using at the moment.

I mean i’m sure how much sensible would that be for somebody to adopt that in 2022 right without really making sure that it it we understand what it is and we understand their business.

Model if we compare it with ours, and then we make sure they get No, it bits.

Well, i’m not using a the not overdoing things, either, you know.

If there are challenges, let’s look at into that area and deal with those challenges where they are rather than trying to kind of

You see that a lot as well we’re implementing this thing to everyone, whereas actually it’s not needed everywhere by everyone that actually it’s you know we can deal with the smaller challenges quickly and I think that’s again one of

the lovely things about agile. Is it brings these things to our attention fast? And if we’re listening, then we can deal with them before they even really become a major problem.

Right? one question. see, when you are in the service industry you don’t have a luxury of saying like you’re not going to skill the digital delivery because it’s up to the sponsor and your the scope, right which you

have to do it. That idle way could be like, Go!

You created a customer from. you have multiple scrum teams and fix the print for them.

A new schedule, or what shared a milestone delivery, where you need an integration between this all this experience.

That’s the way it works in a larger team for example, legal and for more than 8 number teams.

This has to be done. like the Product Development Company, you can come with your one agile model, then you can demonstrate to the stakeholder.

But in service industry you don’t have a luxury Sorry I think that’s a valid fair point of view.

Sure I mean, I see in terms of the customer is modeled, or he is just interested in.

I know what kind of business value you deliver to him. right?

So I mean, obviously you might have a say that regards saying that you have a bigger team and deliver more features and all that.

But but again, as you said right, what works for you might not work for me, or what was for me My!

So if you have found that that’s all these practices that come from safe right like this, come of scrum, or even know having bigger teams, and then having an integration layer, oh, as long as you don’t

compromise, not as long as the teams don’t compromise on the underlying

Basic values of the the base, agile delivery framework, right?

And as long as you are able to match steps with the all the teams put together, and as long as there is a remarkable increment. No, that is ready.

One every few weeks. I think your your job is done that way.

I would say

Really i’m brilliant, how about that call one cool the my

Oh, my! my diagrams just to just to kind of say I was talking about this kind of like window implementing this big, agile right the way across the organization.

Is actually there’s not so little as I was going on then kind of create this more dynamic, and I was trying to put it in a picture.

I haven’t done a very good job, but I don’t know if it comes across that the kind of sense of actually little pockets of agility that are growing, and and and and lots of smaller teams.

So you know we that’s the point of agile is lots of small steps.

They think big act small and when we’re scaling something it’s the same thing whether we’re scaling a business or product to service, you know.

You think big at small. We can think about that life cycle again, you know.

Yes, that’s where we want to be but actually that’s not where we are today, where are we today?

And how are we gonna grow and develop this? So that we can equally, you know, write size as well.

So there’s this talking about scale and descaling i’m more kind of right sizing, you know.

Actually, we need to right size things that fit the organization the model the work, the industry that they’re in.

So yeah, brilliant that’s great I’m, i’m gonna flip over the East because we’re

We’re running we’re running quite behind so I think I I mean i’m happy to carry on you.

If obviously, these are you guys watching, You can nip out and grab a drink or a comfort break if you want to, as well.

But I’m i’m quite happy to carry on and we’ll count to 3, showing these questions

Yeah, I have a question. Sorry? Oh, yeah, go on. Sorry. Yeah.

Can you go to the previous slide, which who had don’t take it too literally.

That was literally a doodle last night. See here, my questions.

You have asked this question earlier. also to somebody else. So we have something called as communication channels.

Infernal. Now that’s set concept that is I mean that’s a general concept. it’s a Pmb.

Concept. Okay, So when we have a team, and then just we have our lecture, we have a team of 6 people, and if just one person gets added the number of communication channels actually goes to phones just by adding one person into the

team. No, my point here is in terms of this diagram.

When I look at the hierarchical structure you would more transparently find a right letting you know the the there is no hierarchy out there.

Basically it’s not that I cannot talk to the product manager you know that there is a year between and all that.

Don’t you think this actually causes lot of confusion when I actually create a mesh kind of communication?

Model we that’s what happens at all the moment I see I mean practically I’m talking what happens is one stakeholders we have in the project more confusion at each point you’re handling the confusion in a different

matter. Okay, part There’s always a lot of views lot of people coming in, and things never end.

You know, discussions demonstrate, but everybody will have their own view.

So what what is your team on this hierarchy versus?

I know the other other kind of model you you you just made me realize one of the things i’d love to do is put this th the overword in there switch days round, and kind of go because I think we can’t

get away from hierarchy. We do have hierarchy within organizations, but it’s it’s more of an a child diagram than it is the way we actually work, you know Most businesses I work

with independent of whatever type of business they all work cross functionally.

But the you know the the picture is the hierarchy.

So and I agree. You know. The more people you ask, the the more complex the the communications get, which is again where I think we have to come back to going.

Actually you need small things that are talking to each other and you know closely related rather than one person trying to oversee everything, because you know it’s just impossible.

And this is where you know, we’re trying to get to that self-organizing self-managing because actually, then, the business runs itself like the planet sustains itself.

You know we’re kind of looking for that infinite game aren’t we?

Where you know. we want to keep playing the game and it’s yeah, it’s it’s about creating that that feeling, and it is harder.

I again. I have this conversation say many times at always not the quick, simple, easy way to do things.

It’s, not It’s the it’s the the way that we do, that we’re trying to get most values, and we’re getting, you know, vital working solutions you know like the minimum viable product is not cheapest quickest

thing we can throw out the door. it’s about developing a viable product, and people often miss the viable word, you know.

Say, you know this isn’t easy isn’t straightforward is dynamic.

It is ever changing and moving and that’s why the people component is so important. because we’re not machines. You can’t fix this in sprints, and you know measure our product here, because it bounces up, and down you know

So we it’s that acceptance of that I’m gonna stop myself because i’m really getting carried away with that one.

Yeah, okay, fine. I think I think this too some of them it’s like, we. We said that it’s going to be exciting.

No one said it’s going to be easy right because here the prose the pros of this approach kind of outweigh the cons right and I think we we try and live with the with it rather than being in

hierarchical structure, and then, not having any kind of transparency or visibility it’s basically I I would feel it’s more about financing financing this versus that right that’s the going

with what? no good stuff isn’t it right slide flip those slides that i’m flipping past.

If you are one of if you’re like me and that makes you go.

Oh, I want to see those slides and then, go on my Youtube. channel because both of the exercises are on there, it’s the cup of tea and the mindset.

So if you if you want to go and play those exercises and then you can do get on the Youtube channel.

So they’re great little exercise and i’m really hoping we’d have some extra, but we’ve we’ve eaten all our slack already, so we’re into our 1 min kind of replies on our

questions. So yeah, should we? do you? Do you want to give your first?

Thanks, Linda. So I think So far we had 2 topics, broad topics based on the kind of intensity that most people from the audience. no one wanted to know.

No, this is the last These are some more questions that we received, and we are quickly going to run through them.

The first one right quick some masters role, right?

Who can perform a better school master role and experienced project manager?

Or would it be a program manager, or is it going to be a technical leader?

Now, can someone who is no who is the fresh graduate out of college, or, you know, a Pmo.

Or a facilitator who understands the software development lifecycle model.

Well perform this role. So this is being discussed on quite a few platforms, but I think for most of them it’s still remains a little blurred.

That is the that that is what I think the I mean.

It is one of the questions, and just to before I hand it over to you, Bill, and quickly to add, my thoughts definitely support me from my perspective.

Come, master is is a kind of leadership role, right?

So I would put that equivalent to a traditional project manager, or even at times a senior project manager, or or in that or in that row, right?

A technical architect, or even a product manager. alright.

So I mean it’s definitely not no not a role that can be performed overnight. right.

I have been doing something yesterday, and today they announced the time for at least for me.

It doesn’t work that way. so you are thoughts I so I should pre pre with them.

So i’m i’m not particularly a scrum advocate or a safe advocate, or anything so and and

So I often talk about a sprint facilitator and I think it’s a similar role to the scrum master, but it’s not exactly i’m not i’m not talking from a scrum position it just to make that

that say that outfit I do think somebody who’s got great facilitation skills makes a great scrum master and I think somebody who is able to disconnect themselves from the content.

So i’m not saying that they’re not involved in the content they might be, but I think it’s a different hat.

So I think when you’re you’re you’re putting on the hat, the sprint facilitator, you’re actually moving into a bit of servant leadership role i’m here to serve the team, i’m not here to

make the decisions that the team are here to decide the content I’m here to hold the process and help facilitate that you know, and and and help the team to to work it out for themselves.

You know. so I do think it’s a real kind of coaching facilitate to type role.

I think sometimes you know somebody fresh out of college.

Somebody who has no knowledge of the content is actually a great facilitator because they’re completely independent.

Then from the content. So I think you can see it both ways sometimes it’s great to have somebody that does know it, and sometimes actually it’s to have somebody doesn’t and it is about half so I I I agree on something

you said earlier about people’s changing roles is actually you know all.

Often when i’m i’m coaching and advising and training, as i’ll say, i’m taking off my hat here, and I’m putting on my advisor hat you know i’m gonna tell you now i’m

not gonna coach you i’m gonna tell you and I make that active distinction to them.

So I think you know. Yeah, I think you know that’s what we’re looking for in a scrum, master.

I don’t think it really you know that that that we can say it’s only one person and particular experience and background.

Yeah, and somebody to facilitate isn’t it somebody who will take those facilitation rains.

I think a lot of the time I Oh, the traffic lights in the roundabout is then a bit of a servant leadership thing.

So the traffic lights, you know. Am I being a traffic like kind of leader?

Or am I being around about leader? So a traffic light is a very command and control?

I’m telling you when to go i’m telling you what to do.

I’m telling you went to stop whereas a roundabout is more I’m putting in place these rules and guidelines to help you to navigate this for yourself.

Yeah, So you actually we wanna be more round about if we’re gonna be. you know we’re we’re as a scrum master.

We want to be around about this. help him facilitate that team to navigate them.

Things themselves rather than traffic like telling them, you know, when to stop and go.

That makes sense

I’m right next question that’s gay ultimate Oh, I love this one.

I love this one. this is about how to make how to make an interval talk, and I think there is a related question along with that meeting.

All of them speak really in meetings the biggest, the the the the F.

5 5 is given once by some day. was to be quiet and I it’s such a powerful one

It’s almost like uncomfortable silence you know you I will fill a space.

I will fill a and teaching myself not to. so actually shutting up.

Some other people can talk. Say, what are these things, cause I am you know I talked to person. One of the reasons i’m letting you take the game fast is that you get your words, you know.

So actually being what. But there, there is just this, this subsequent of, you know, creating this comfortable space for people, this safe space for people.

But also, you know, recognizing that you know if if you have got an Internet in the team, you’re not gonna make them talk.

You’ve got to create a space. that allows them to talk, and you know, asking them for a an answer off the cuff is, you know you’re not gonna get one You need to give them time. to reflect.

And review. So one thing I would say is, you know, ask them about the last meeting, not about straight.

Now let them play that observer role, you know, and then feedback at the end of the session, you know.

Let them be comfortable being the person that they are don’t try and force them to be an extra when they’re you know, if they don’t want to be, and then I think you start to see people you know coming out of their

show and and and contributing more and and that links into that, you know, ensuring the team.

Are you taking picking this again going back? I mean that that really should have the traffic lights on the roundabout again is, you know if if the scrum master or the po is assigning, them then they’re being traffic

lights, and not being roundabouts and they’re not being a scrum master or productainer, either.

They’re being a command and control micro management you know telling people what today say?

You know the problem isn’t the team there the problem is the micro, you know.

You know. Stop telling them what today be quiet, and you might find that they will

Right right, hey? Goodbye. Is there anything else you want to add?

I mean I think pretty much, you have summarized Just I think I know the very strong point is allowing them to play to their restraints, and then you know so that they they don’t feel

that their comfort zone is taken away from them or dating that is, that that is the highlight.

And then I think eventually they come out of their shell, and things should fall in place.

Yeah, Yeah. but I think if we force you know people and and everybody has their extra introvert side right now, i’m in extrapat made But 3 h ago I was riding my horse. and I was in my interact made I

was in my shell. I was clearing my mind ready for this session.

And so you know it’s about creating a space you know where people feel. Yeah.

Safe and comfortable, and and I just love this little gift, which was, you know, where we started with lockdown, you know.

Everybody felt that you know we’re all waving and that becomes It’s such a natural and normal thing to do so actually you know that that that repetition in that iteration helps as well.

Right. so let’s Oh, devops and agile be made to work seamlessly in teams adopted both. Have you?

Do you want to go for this one? right? So how the yeah, How can devops and age will be made to work seamlessly in teams that have adopted the both right

So again. I think because in in an nest attempt, or in an anxiety to do too many things at once.

I think that is where no I mean wha what what we call I mean, or what you it does is shiny objects, right?

That’s what happens I think that you can most organizations are, or the kind of push No, that comes their way with the high energy levels in the beginning.

And then you’ll start seeing things paid away right So I I I would say, start minimal right start minimal no where to start in the sense, have a cross functional team with the no a good setup for t-shaped

skills, and then have this in mind, saying that is the starting point, and then continuous improvement is what no happens along the way.

And then you I mean it’s like there is they say right then, when you eat an element, you reach it 1 Byte at a time, or one piece at a time, right?

So, you know. you know, play to your strengths, and then have continuous improvement in mind, and I think on one side.

You will, because these are the 2 walls of silos that we are trying to break right.

I mean one involved between the customer and the delivery team.

That is via and via a delivery practice, and then the other is between the It delivery and the it operations that world wire develops right.

So when when you have a mix of no practitioners doing things together, and and it’s not like you start, and you say that yesterday we are fully aager and we are devoted starts one i’m bringing

the relevant practices. If you feel that you are going too fast. Slow down a bit.

Take time, but make sure that you don’t stop right because as long as you see continuous improvement, and that is what you are going at.

I can I mean it’s not going to be easy right definitely.

But take baby steps, and you should be there I think that’s it.

It’s not challenge for me between running the business you know, maintaining the business and changing and growing the business isn’t it is that balance of you know ones trying to change and grow the others trying to maintain and

sustain, so we need to find that nice balance because now we’re in this kind of

Well, i’ve never, done aren’t we you know systems are never done.

They’re constantly being maintained sustained developed evolved, and and creating that kind of ek system where we get that balance between run and change, I think is is is is really important.

And it so I think it’s recognizing that and that really helps them the team to to kind of move forward and not be to, you know, like they recognize what the others trying to do.

But they all yeah, I think they work well together from what I you know I’ve seen.

I think it is often the mindset that becomes the challenge in that ones.

It’s almost violent agreement what I call that sometimes is that because we’s coming from that sustainability and maintain, and the others coming from that grow and change that actually we’re we’re saying this same thing but we’re coming from due

to different perspective. So if we can see that, then that I think really helps to to build that that relationship and that report and that balance there is that yeah, right? Cool?

Right. How are we doing? We’re Not we’re getting that making retrays effective and interesting?

And addressing the points discussed in the retro. I I I could resist.

My pay has to come up on this one because it’s one of the things that I do Talk about a lot which is It’s a bit of a kind of challenge of mine. Where I see teams that run perspectives?

They say what’s going Well, what could have gone better but they don’t actually make actionable steps to address those points and move things forward.

They seem to just get left in the retro. So I love the bay game, because, as I said earlier, we map ourselves.

We map our anchors, we scale them out of 10, and then we look.

For how do we raise those cells? Raise a Lancash just by a notch?

Say, What can we do in the next spring that can take that minus 7 to a minus 6?

And then that action those those yellow paste in H. you can see on the bait.

These are a plus ones. They can go into our backlog and has changed an improvement.

Tasks. So when we’re looking at our sprint planning we’re planning our offspring.

Yes, we’ve got our planned work our delivery work, but we’ve also got that i’ll run the business, So you know, deliver the work. But we’ve also got our change in growth, stuff for the team that saying Okay, during this spring

we’re gonna implement some of these things out that retrospective and just making them small and actionable.

Say I wasn’t team my way this one of my favorite examples of trying to be quick.

They put get these. they put server minus 10 server. keeps crashing and their plus one was get new server.

And I was like, Okay, that’s not really a plus one is it? that’s probably slightly more than a plus one.

What’s the first apple thing that you could do in the next spring? and they were like log when the server crashes.

So they logged. when the server crash they logged at the time it was costing them.

They showed it to the director of that business, and he immediately ordered a server upgrade because he saw the lost time.

So these little plus ones can really get you that traction and momentum to really help that boat go faster.

But yes, if that’s my my take on that one is that we need to use the right kind of you know games and tools that help the team to create this create such a beautiful safe space safety, challenge, and you know It’s all about you

know the it’s not about people it’s about the boat and and making it go faster, and it works great so

And then there’s a guide on my site if you want to kind of find out more like that so very, very quick overview of playing it.

But it’s it’s a bit of an add-on to some of the other bay exercises.

You might have seen

So we have to be all that you have the next one.

There go so of what? or who defines a working product in a large multi vendor, or a multi feature?

Environment developed by assessment teams or distributed teams and example is iot kind of projects with many layers.

That’s the mission. Oh, you give you a 1 min, cause I’ve just I’ve just hate you, but not lies.

The last one I I mean from mine. but talk prosperity just because a product is slightly bigger in size, or is is going to be a set of features.

Be good I It should not mean that, on the whole

A whole lot of product managers. So product owners should come into play.

I mean it just means that the product owner is slightly, you know, held more accountable, or you put you know you can’t start up going on in place, and from and possibly in such a case in such situations right he would have

no a set of business analysts or no. a smaller team who would then be responsible for individual subsystems, or rather the overall product manager or one would be delegating you know some of these responsibilities.

To them while still being accountable for the entire product vision or the no overall roadmap for for this kind of distributed engagement is is what I would like to see.

Yeah, I can quite I was on a similar vein, really, in that i. e.

Going back to what I was saying earlier. you know when it’s a large multi vendor multi feature product. Actually, we’ve got lots of components that need accepting.

And I I you know my initial actually my when I read this question in the first time was I kind of smiled and went the user, and that was my shortest time.

So with the user. you know whoever’s using which bit of that, and if they are using it and find you get useful, then that what that’s what defines you know, while working solution, if you like.

Say brilliant right let’s see if we can get through a couple more of these.

Oh, so this one was all about estimation actually and i’ve got a fairly short my my kind of take on estimation. till I till I do that, and then you can add quickly but I I I kind of feel

like all estimation tools can be useful. if I need to generate conversation, and I think the conversation is what is absolutely critical when it comes to any kind of estimation tool we’re using.

I think one in isolation. probably won’t be effective I think probably we need a few but the reason I put this graphic up was because I think I think whenever we’re estimating things and we’re trying to

measure, productivity and utilization, and all these different things.

We need to keep reminding ourselves that we are not working down here in where we know exactly what we’re doing, and how we’re doing things we so often in tech.

But across businesses I work with. You know these change projects these improvement projects these new products, new services new. new do you know we don’t know what we’re doing.

We don’t know how we’re gonna do things so estimating these things can be so hard. and that’s why I love things like t-shirt sizes because it really helps to give the client a gauge of

things. So you know I I would like this how big is that right it’s an extra large, Okay, it’s fine.

I don’t need it you know it’s an extra small yeah let’s go for it.

So you know It’s about driving that conversation so we get better and descending.

We do know what we’re doing and how we’re going to do things if that makes sense Sorry to finish up now.

Was there anything particularly you wanted to add there? yeah, just a good couple of points.

So I think how effectively is ws they’ve used in organizations. I think so.

The organizations know that that that rely on lean approaches right, and organizations that believe in working progress limits.

I think those are the organizations, would, you know, would probably benefit, or, you know, tap the full level, I mean full potential of Wsj.

That is one. and I think again, Yes, t-shirt sizing is is a I mean, when you look at traditional person days based estimate estimation techniques I think definitely t-shirt sizing he’s

better placed, because you can look at the sizes at a high level, and then take a quick decision Right?

And I think in terms of measuring a productivity and utilization of the team members.

I think that traditional way of looking at the delivery matrix might not work here, and we should possibly think about having our own agile delivery metrics, and which might not be same for each organization, or team But I think that

because we are not really focused so much on productivity right because it’s a small team that is no closely knit team. and then the focus is on delivering business value.

And I think as long as there’s good business value being delivered.

I don’t think no the team themselves, or anybody should really be so much concerned about measuring productivity.

Yeah, Oh, i’m sorry. yeah I was just gonna pick up on a point that somebody made in chat that was around the

The the weighted shortest job first is about prioritization rather than estimation.

So I was just gonna pick up on that Say, sorry I’ll but you carry on a yeah no problem She actually one thing which I need when I went through this you know, scared the trial.

There was. you know, this entire Wstf part is goes a little beyond what is mentioned here.

It actually goes into the business value also. and I think there is the formula, a little pretty complex formula and table that I have seen that.

So I don’t remember that, anyway. I Find it on the Internet but that actually, puts everything in the picture of course.

What T-shirt sizing the storage sizing as well as the business value, attacks i’m going.

What happens is not every time a simple story should we picked up first?

I mean what I’m saying is that express one more, whatever it is.

You know, medium is picked up. even an excel is picked up.

If the business value is more higher. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, definitely, the kind of business value times.

Yeah, actually makes a defense. So rather than doing something it’s a lesser value ahead of faster time.

So this is the thing. I just want no that’s a really good point, because I was and I was talking about that kind of sensitive as a customer.

If i’m saying, oh, i’d like this thing is it big, is it small?

Because if it’s small, I probably want to do it but if it’s actually large. i’m gonna burn half my budget.

Then I won’t you know it’s that kind of helping to inform and and create these conversations that then help us to prioritize things.

And you know, you know I to me like the way tissue is Job fast.

You know that kind of what’s important what sergeant what’s most valuable, you know for us to def first.

You know that that like you’re saying you know it size doesn’t necessarily come into it. Then it’s about delivering that business value.

What’s major valuable and and when we talk about minimum viable product, and the protein principle like, what’s that?

20% of this that we can build that’s gonna deliver you the 80% of the value that that we can get that working solution out there.

Get you engaged, get you excited about it, and then look to build more and more on that Did you want to add something quickly, I? So you pop up?

Oh, no, I think you have brilliant. I think these these slides are literally talking a lot, I think.

Allow these slides and the which is getting depicted right.

I think it. It says it’s so powerful just that I think just going back to safe when we are discussing discussing about the same passage.

I think vice-safe, or why is fortified?

Is it because of the dependencies, or is because of the complex shift dependencies?

Is it because dependency itself it is needs to be managed That’s why we bring save or spotify a kind of white question this.

But is is Is this because we need to manage these complex these these dependencies?

That’s why that’s when you bring the safe otherwise each and every individual team are good in managing in their own.

And there is which is a simple scum it’s a good point that actually, or i’m hearing you saying that is, you know we use these methods when we need them.

If things are going well, you know, and then then, you know we can. We can.

We can take advantage of these methods and and and help us but we shouldn’t over do it is that that’s why i’m kind of hearing you saying there as well is that we shouldn’t use the methods

for the sake of using the methods we should use them when we need them, when they’re most valuable to us.

Yeah, yeah, and at the same time I think it just when I and I mean on the your first slide. it’s not sure whether you can just bring it back.

But I I like the calls as well where you are just depicted.

The pulse of there is a pulse rate.


But whether the same thing will be allowed by the leadership or the management when it goes down, the kind of question, you know.

If because they aware that how you know leadership comes in to be done, and they should not be I mean, and it goes down the th.

That’s where the model of the team also goes down is it not so.

So we we’ve got to remember we’re not machines we’re not factories, you know, business, and it’s one of the great things about agile is it’s really you know focused on knowledge base and people and

teams and You know we’re not machines we don’t run, and that, you know we like continuously.

We have our reps and flows and like you say we need to be.

If we’re leading a team. we need to be there for them and they’re high on their lows and and and and see that that’s bye say we’re we’re running slightly over but i’m

i’m I think we’re literally on this must yeah it is the last question.

So we’re not bad actually considering we’re we’re. Both the chatty pair are we so the sales team bring in sales in on and getting involved in estimation pre sales what your thoughts

on that Jason. alright, I mean I think the I mean.

I love the delivery teams And then subsequently the operations teams, and they brought on to the bandwagon.

A little earlier. I think the sales teams are kind of left a little behind right, but but I think it is imperative where it is very essential that you know, they also tune themselves to the world of agile and

delivery. Alright, so I think there is no harm in I mean, of course, as part of sales and marketing, they would not have the luxury, or they would not have kind of props required to get into detail and agile

estimation, but I think it would be good for them to engage with the delivery team early on, or even, I mean just like how we take the concept of devops the developers and the operations work together right from the

beginning rather than towards the end, right? So it should make sense that they also start working with the delivery team upfront.

And then any high level high level estimates that would kind of give an indication in terms of you know.

I as a forecast rate, not really as a not really as a commitment written on stone, which would happen in traditional no delivery engagements and any kind of estimation that is done at a

high level that would give them a visibility of what is the product?

Why we are looking at What is the Mvp. How soon is it going to come?

So I think that kind of engagement, if it can happen at the sales team level, and that would be brilliant.

Yeah, yeah. I think in the same way as we have cross-functional teams within to act.

We can think of those cross-functional teams across the business.

And actually, if we can be involved. So you know I i’ve worked in an organization once, and they had a very 2 very clear stylase contracts and delivery.

You know any, it would literally be the contracts team would go out with their business and throw it over the world to delivery and would land with us, and we go.

You’ve agreed will do what and how long and then it’s the case. It was working out how we’re gonna deliver this in these constraints and and it’s so challenging and if you’ve

got that overlap. if you can create that relationship again, between then actually, it’s really good, because what it means is you know, those of us in design and development and delivery further down the pipeline.

If you like can see what’s coming but we’ll say sales and marketing can see what’s happened to those contracts that they’ve won, and we can we can build this and I work with when all that

was still outups. one of the things they often say is,

You know they’ve they’ve gotten over and use that sales director, and they’ll be out there winning business, and they’ll come in and they’ll go guys guys or want to wait contract drop everything work on this and you right Okay, and Then the next day

they’ll come in and go, guys, guys well I want this not drop everything Work on this, and you know I don’t really helps us to kind of manage that.

And say, Okay, I mean I I was saying it that if you haven’t seen the film, Mary poppins it doesn’t quite work.

But you’re not Mary Poppins bag and and There’s a film. Got Mary Poppins she got a bag that she can fit everything in.

She can just put all these amazing things in and out of her bag, and and that we’re not that as a team.

You know we we have our, we have our constraints in what we can achieve.

So the more we can work with sales and marketing here You know at the coal face, engage with the customer trying to understand, trying to help them to understand how we can make this client’s life better and you know freak through

our solutions is a good thing in my view and getting that cross functionality throughout the organization.

Not just a month tech in tests and devops and things, but actually much more broadly than that.

And I think that really helps to spread the agile as well.

Then, because you know the sales and marketing teams i’ve worked with an industry such all love it you know.

They absolutely love it. So you know, giving them that visibility and creating those those boards and and conversations to to create those relationships can be.

Yeah, I’ve seen brilliant you know really great stuff happen.

In fact, I have worked with this client called Startup in Singapore, long back. and this you know, what you actually said is exactly what happened.

You know, the pcs team can’t even have because they obviously need the big to I mean, they have to win the bit so that they need the you know, contract.

Sure we ended up delivery team. I was a part of the delivery team and all that.

So we ended up working might day and night to meet the you know, deadlines and all that stuff.

So basically, what simply happens is precise steam. Sorry to do it.

It is a Jarvis. you may actually have cycle, so that estimates can be more accurate.

I would probably my experience twice. research team are not technically sound, so they have to either.

Probably approach a technical line or it it is better they don’t estimate it.

The technical person’s estimation is very different from a piece of threshold.

Yeah, yeah, Well, it’s it’s I I I I was building website once we were building a website for the agile on Beach conference.

And One of the little things was I was the customer web developer working, and one of the little things was

We had gray social media icons. And I said, Yeah.

And how long, you know, Can we just make those different colors?

You know how big is that from like a t-shirt perspective?

And he was like, Oh, that’s like 3 days coding and I was like that fine great, you know they’re absolutely fine. Great!

I’m not gonna wait 3 days of my budget changing the color of button, because it’s hardcated in.

So I think that’s the sort of insight that you guys can give sales and marketing is that okay?

The customers asking for this thing? Is it an extra small t-shirt, or is it an extra large t-shirt?

Yes, so I can get gauge that I can inform the client. So that shiny feature, if they realize that that shiny feature that is a wouldn’t it be lovely if you know he’s actually gonna eat a core of their budget

maybe change their mind about when and whether they will not include it so I think that’s the real informative bit is actually, you know what we’re not looking to recreate what the clients already.

Got are we? we’re looking to make it better and bigger and better, and join here.

So we need that conversation in my view. with sales and marketing, he get what the client are looking for.

To be able to really understand and therefore you know. offer a solution that’s better than what they’ve got already. Yeah.

In fact, I think this is where the mature teams come into play.

Now. the way the way you said i’m not saying that every present so like that there are many smart people.

Who are actually very good, and they are in free cells.

And there I couldn’t see levels or near you know it’s It’s pretty good the the kind of guess what they do.

They’re very good in it. some people actually don’t consult technical folks, and they just jump into the client calls.

They give some sort of a numbers and they don’t they it completely messes up company, you know.

Stuff. So yeah, Yeah. it depends it’s it’s actually development team or a library team has to be lucky to have that more ram.

It’s all presents by locking it I think it’s. i’m just having a quick look at the chat as well.

There’s some really nice little things but going back to this as well is, I think, when you know we’re we’re trying to ass, you know, if I put myself in a sales position.

If i’m pretty clear what it is and how it’s gonna happen, I can estimate it.

I probably don’t need to get you involved but the further away.

We get from knowing what we’re doing and how we’re going to do things.

This is where sales really need your help you know if when I say you’re I mean, you know, Dev Delivery.

You know the people building the solutions and designing the solutions.

This is where I think I really need your help is is that because it’s not clear whether it is big or small.

We’ve just got this shiny idea that we want to see you know.

How can we do this? So I yeah, I wholly agree.

I think, absolutely brilliant. so i’m just gonna have a quick look at that.

During Oh, different people involved that’s yeah interesting and we’re trying to get a small part of the delivery team involved in the project scene or in the process to help with the shaping and also let the sound yeah

I think it’s great to get involved. early even if it’s like touch to get to make that connection, and make that contact, and also keep sales involved after as well you know don’t just see it as a blind hand over But keep them involved.

because they’re the ones that had that initial rapport and relationship with the client.

So you know they are your friend in terms of how helping manage and get the client into a good rhythm and set their expectations on.

You know how often that we’re gonna need to talk to you and how often we’re gonna meet and all these things.

So you know, giving them that visibility really helps them to be able to say, you know I know the team are really busy at the main, but i’m I know that they’ve got some time coming up in the next few springs We can

schedule it, and then say they’ve got some sight of what’s going on. so that they’re not making promises because they’ve got more visibility of actually you know how busy you guys are and I do a lot of work with teams

in that in creating that visibility across the departments so that it’s not just going from you know we’ve won this straight into and and trade over delivery to go.

Oh, brilliant right Oh, that’s just a I’ve say the slides i’ll share the slides after I’m gonna stop sharing there.

Come back to video and see we are a little bit over.

But that was inevitable. I think and i’m glad to see so many of you.

Still with us, and I have I kind of think well we’re recording.

So if you have have to drop off then at least you can grab the last 10 min, and we’ve we’ve knocked on Butler, Really, I think it’s been a really good session i’ve

enjoyed it. Have you guys enjoyed it? Feel free to ping your videos up and come on and get away the edgeways.

Now I shall be quiet. That is not pretty useful thanks thanks for session.

I’ve been giving you food The thought and that parade a 20% of this 19 min will be the most valuable to you.


Oh, thank you for the Smiley face. this side thank you so You’ve got to go.

Yeah, no problem, Thank you. hanging on a little bit longer.

Appreciate it. It’s it’s been really nice Yeah. Small glitch at my side.

Sorry for that. Thank you. Yeah, it was. It was really a good session.

And thanks for this session. I think we should hold this session more regularly.